Derick Pope – High Arc Media

Paul Bzeta: I’m here with Derek Pope. Derek, thanks for joining us today.

Derick Pope: Absolutely. Paul, how's it going,

Paul Bzeta: Very good. Very good. So how's business? How is High Arc Media doing so far this year?

Derick Pope: man? We are blessed to actually be doing well. Um, it was a little shaky to start the year. I'm not going to lie. Um, you know, between the bank failures economy, I think, you know, being in this corporate space, you know, there's a lot of speculation and, um, it was a little quiet and I think as people realize one, you know, I have some friends who always say, you know.

Honestly, when I saw everything about the BRICS currency and everything, I'm like, okay, I'm planning my move out the country, you know, and I'm like, well, I might be moving or trying to go somewhere else. But, you know, a good friend of mine, uh, he mentioned, he's like, Hey man, like the industry that we're in when times get hard, our companies, our clients need to advertise more.

So we'll always have business. And that's how I feel like, uh, [00:01:00] things really moved. So, um, right now things are going really well. Um, Yeah, I can't complain. Got a couple of big documentaries, commercials with some pretty big organizations. So,

Paul Bzeta: Yeah, that's great. So doing documentaries, doing commercials, that's uh, quite a step from someone who maybe a few years ago, uh, Can you sort of summarize a little bit about yourself and your journey and how you've got to where you are now?

Derick Pope: yep. Yep. Every time I get asked that question, I give all my kudos to my business coaches. So, um, I'm a huge fan of business coaches. When I first started, um, you know, I was literally, um, you can't tell from me sitting down, but I'm six foot five, pretty athletic. So I played basketball my whole life. I was just doing highlight videos, different things like that.

And I was maybe charging like 250 for like six highlight reels or something like that. Terrible. Um, but you know, I had some [00:02:00] friends that had nice cameras and I started using it for my own brand and different things I was doing. And I noticed that it was really picking up steam on social media, different things like them.

Okay. Hey, you know, I really like when I see these Superbowl commercials, different things like that, somebody shooting them, how is that set up? I always knew I had the smarts, you know, get into business and do my own thing. So I was just on Instagram. I got an ad from a business coach and he's like, yeah, blah, blah, blah.

This might be you. It resonated. We jumped on a free call and he was so genuine and you know, it just completely changed my life. Uh, uh, it was a three month program. I did not have the money at the time. I think it was like. Somewhere between 3, 500, 4, 000. I put it on credit, called a couple of lenders, put it all together, took the risk, and I made that money back before three months was even done.

So since then I've had about four or five business courses now. So it's. It changed my life, for sure.

Paul Bzeta: And you're using the business coaches for [00:03:00] developing the business plan or was it to, you know, use them as a sounding board when it came to looking for clients.

Derick Pope: Right, so, there were several different coaches, right? So, the very first one, uh, was anybody can do this for free. It was the local chamber of commerce. And I was just running my business ideas by them. That was one of the first things I heard, heard about. And that was really solid, but they were very general.

Um, you know, he was able to, You know, kind of see what I was talking about and give me general advice on like just best general business practices. But me understand that I needed somebody in production who's made the mistakes, who knows exactly where to find the people. Um, so that first coach showed me how to, you know, first off, the biggest thing he's like, we're not doing anything under 1500, that was.

Now I don't do anything under like five or 10, but you know, his first thing was like, we're going to start charging more. We're going to work with corporate clients. And, um, you know, just really showing me how to do [00:04:00] sales marketing, how to brand myself. It was one of the toughest times ever really putting together all these spec commercials and different things.

But, you know, I had that as an athlete, I had that, that, that grind, that competitiveness to me. And I just, took over and now he jokes with me like, how'd you pass me? Like you're, you're doing things bigger than I've ever done. And I just was hungry for the information. So, yeah, I mean, and after that I worked with a coach who, um, taught me about scaling.

So, you know, he was like, Hey, we don't take anybody who's not making six figures. And it's just, you know, you need to be at that level to really. Um, implement some of the things you have to pay to play. So, um, you know, he really taught me how to hire people, how to really cater to high end clients. And, um, like I said, I'm just forever grateful and I actually do business coaching now as well.

I've been able to, to make it to a point where I'm teaching people. I've got several students who got retainer clients. They're doing very well now. So. It's been [00:05:00] a great journey to be honest,

Paul Bzeta: So from athlete to video production company owner to business coach. Amazing. Amazing. So how did you get those first initial clients, Derek? Talk to me about, um,

Derick Pope: uh, the business coaching clients or

Paul Bzeta: No, I'm sorry, the video production coaches.

Derick Pope: okay. Yeah.

Paul Bzeta: Or sorry, the video production clients.

Derick Pope: yeah. Yeah. So It's funny, you know, it's funny how times change but at the time that goes to telling me about this software called thumbtack and You know thumbtack is a platform where you just it's kind of like, you know kind of like your up work your fiber, but more so in the service based industry where Um, it's like really face to face.

They got some digital things, but you can list as photography services, videography and, you know, [00:06:00] between, you know, okay, biggest things with my coach is saying like, Hey, all you have is these little basketball highlights and just, you know, some guys running around the court, that's not going to attract the clients that you need.

So. So, you know, um, he really worked with me on, um, going and shooting spec commercials that look like the clients, look like the work of the clients that I wanted to work with. So I had to like rent out locations, rent out better camera gear, do all these different things to put together a video. And it's crazy.

I thought I did an amazing job. I thought I did an amazing job in the. First draft I sent him, he's like, Nope, not good enough. You gotta reshoot it. And I almost broke. But, um, so yeah, just really make sure I had a strong portfolio and then taking that portfolio speaks for itself and just putting it in front of the right people.

So, um, now I never used Thumbtack because it's very kind of small projects. But at the time that was amazing. I was able to make a living off of Thumbtack to be honest. So. That's how I really got those first ones. My first ever true [00:07:00] video production, uh, was with a pretty big company called recruiting daily.

It was a big corporate event. Uh, I got there, I was missing a piece to my gimbal. I was freaking out. I ended up having to do these different things. I was shooting by myself, no team, no crew. And it's just, it's just funny to see how far you come along. I just recently did a production where we had like a 60 person crew.

So it's just, you know, um, it's nice to see like the growth and different things like that.

Paul Bzeta: Yeah, definitely. So You started by doing spec spots. So was this before landing that first client that you were just sort of trying to develop a reel or a, or a list of examples.

Derick Pope: Absolutely. And I tell all my students that like, we're in the business of creativity and your work speaks for itself. You know, obviously you have to have great processes and customer journeys around that and do sales and marketing. But the biggest thing is like, Hey. It's a visual product. So how does your product look?

So that's the biggest thing, just like, you know, [00:08:00] McDonald's or any food places, like, Hey, the product isn't going to sell if it doesn't taste good, if it doesn't look good, and it's the same thing, same thing with us. So you got to work on your product first. Um, so yeah, I started with that and he, you know, he was like, Hey, you know, you can create your specs.

You can use a combination of some of my footage. Um, one thing that I tell people now is to, and this is, these are some gems that I'm giving away now, but one thing that I tell people now is to, you know, first off, you don't want to do all the work yourself, you're going to burn out. So go ahead and start reaching out to contractors who have the type of portfolio in the industries that you want to work in.

So, for instance, I really want to work in healthcare. I might reach out to cinematographers, directors, producers in the healthcare industry. Who, if I'm first starting out, right, who have this portfolio and I'm saying, Hey, I'm really, um, looking to take my production company to the next level. I'll be doing sales and marketing and different things like that.

If you don't mind, uh, I would love to put some of your portfolio on my site. [00:09:00] And anytime I get a job, I'll make sure to hire you. We can write a contract, different things like that. So that's a quick way to just get the portfolio that you need. And. That way you'll be working with multiple people. You, uh, you have that, that portfolio.

It's just, it's a great way to get there quickly, but that product is absolutely necessary. And, um, just like other things, other things you can do partnerships and production. So. Um, yeah, making sure you can partner quickly and get that portfolio that you need and then shift from there. That's a good way to start.

Paul Bzeta: Yeah. Amazing. Um, we can get into a little bit more about that in terms of, uh, some advice that you might have for newcomers. 'cause it sounds as though you've got quite a , you're gonna have quite a few. But how do you ensure, Derek, that you and your team is always delivering great work?

Derick Pope: Yeah. So that's, that's a good question. And that's, I'm, I'm a stickler on that. Like, you know, um, the biggest [00:10:00] thing is for me is looking to make partnerships with all my clients. Right. So we don't want to. So we're not just a production company. We're a video marketing agency. So the biggest thing is like, Hey, the video part is easy, but we want to make sure the story is told in a way that's going to create results for you and make you more money.

So you keep coming back to hire video. So we're always when, what I view as a great piece is a piece to actually achieve the client's goals, um, articulates. To their specific target audience, everything that they need to know. Um, so that's number one. I'm always looking to make sure that we do an audit with the client.

We, we want to see what their true goals are. What does it look like? What does success look like when this video is done? And then from there, you know, obviously having my systems and processes of Um, you know, just pre production, everything, every, every phase is important and pre production is the most important part.

So if that's location scouting, making sure that I'm creating a mood board, a shot list, um, [00:11:00] and I just have that checklist before. So this is the biggest thing. And I told my clients, yes. I'm not the cheapest. Um, we definitely charge a lot more than other companies that you'll be working with, but that comes with experience, you know, that we'll have backup cameras.

If one camera fails, we'll have other ones. We'll have batteries, everything's charged. We have a checklist, you know? Um, so really just having those systems in place to make sure. For every production that, you know, everything's laid out, charged up, ready to go. And, you know, the clients are paying for that, but in the end run, like they see the results and they can make sure that, Hey, this production is always going to be a hundred percent success.

So, um, yeah, just having those systems in place is like huge.

Paul Bzeta: What sort of road bumps did you come across in the past few years that allowed you to grow to where you grow to where you are now and perfect some of those systems that you've talked about? Um, can you [00:12:00] describe some of those challenges you ran into?

Derick Pope: man. Yep, yep, yep. I'm having PTSD now. Um, I've had several. Um, you know, I, and they have been, it's funny that some of the biggest roadblocks and road bumps that I've had have been with some of the biggest clients. So I think one of the most, and this was a recent one, um, Man, I talked about this on another podcast, but I'll keep it brief.

Pretty much we're shooting with Sony. I'm a huge fan of Sony. And you know, of course, one of the requirements is what is that we shoot with Sony cameras. And, you know, we had two shoots on the same day and I had to prioritize the bigger shoot, which was one up in New York is a huge commercial for a forklift company.

And I had one of my smaller crews going out to Tennessee to shoot the Sony commercial and. I, I worked with one of my DPs who I don't always work with because my A team was up with me. So, um, Sony sadly, and I [00:13:00] regret this, they got, they got my B team. I didn't go through all the systems with them. So the FX6 was the camera.

And, um, I've, I've something, it's something about if you try to put it into raw and have it shoot raw without sending it to like the, uh, Shogun monitor or something like that. It's not actually recording. It'll say record, but it's not actually recording those files. So they,

Paul Bzeta: Oh, no.

Derick Pope: yeah, so Sony only got proxy files and we tried to upscale it, different things like that.

And it just was not working. So, you know, that's one of the things is making sure that the crews I'm working with has all already been briefed because they did make that specific Sony camera requirement and he hadn't been using those very often. But, yeah. You know, I was just very confident in his ability.

That's a super particular thing to that camera. So, um, just making sure we had briefing. I was, uh, spending a lot of time on the bigger project, but just making sure that all my clients [00:14:00] get the attention that they need and that the right people are in place. That's definitely a big thing. Uh, those checklists are huge.

You know, like I said, I've been on productions, forgotten pieces to a gimbal or different things like that. So organization and labeling, uh, just those day before preparations definitely help. Man, I've learned back when, I mean, it's still a thing, but I had a big reality show in LA. Another thing we were shooting with the already tungsten lights, um, and they get hot.

So we're in this guy's like 10 million mansion. I told my gaffer, it's like, Hey, I really want a nice like six 50 watt a hair light from back in the corner. Just so happened at that corner had a, um, uh, sprinkler. So it was close to the sprinkler and it set off the water and his whole mansion. Oh my God, it was stressful.

Luckily I had insurance. It still wasn't. It was a pretty penny, but so yeah, different roadblocks. I think one of the other [00:15:00] things too, was from an admin operation standpoint is, you know, uh, coming from 250 videos. You know, when I first made six figures, I changed my lifestyle and I tell everybody, don't change your lifestyle.

I was getting so excited. I'm like, Hey, you know, I'm paying myself more. I'm doing this behind this gear, doing all of that. And you quickly realize that these expenses add up quickly and all these projects aren't extremely predictable. We got COVID hitting, which things kind of went to zero. So, uh, that was a roadblock to just really understand.

I need to get really strict on my finances. Um, so that's another thing I tell people, just because you start making more, keep your lifestyle the same. If you really want to be able to have the money to invest and keep that business growing. So it's been a lot, it's been growing pains for sure, but. It definitely helps you grow up quickly.

So, um, I actually am going on five years of this production company and there's people who are 10, 15 years in saying, man, you've made such strides and different things. So just [00:16:00] like people say, they get thrown into the real world and have to grow up quickly. I threw myself in the fire quickly and had to grow up as a company.

So, um, yeah, it's been a lot for sure. So.

Paul Bzeta: Wow. My I had heart pains there listening about the Sony project. And then you hit me up with the sprinkler system going off in the guy's house here. I had to take a take a deep breath there. I feel you, man. I feel you for that.

Derick Pope: man,

Paul Bzeta: Oh, my God.

Derick Pope: man.

Paul Bzeta: Let me let me ask you this. Um, staying, getting, getting business in, getting revenue in is one thing.

Staying profitable on a consistent basis is another. So how do you stay profitable and keep your, keep your eye to the ball like that?

Derick Pope: Yeah. So, um, that's, that's a super important question. That's where I start with everybody's having that foundation. Right. And you know, in this industry, there's a [00:17:00] lot of people who, you know, went to film school, not necessarily business school. So they're amazing creatives, but they don't know much about business or finance and structure.

So, uh, one of the biggest things that I do is, you know, it's very simple, but it's the profit first system. So. You want to make sure that you have enough, it depends on if you're with like Navy federal, you can make accounts at no charge, but a lot of banks charge you a minimum to have your, um, you know, your, your money in there.

So if like, for instance, Chase, we were Chase and you know, you have to have a minimum of 2000 to each account. So if you have five accounts, that's at least 10, 000. Um, if not, there's like a monthly fee of 15. But what that does is, you know, in this industry, there's a lot of times where. If you're a wedding photographer, if you are shooting certain commercials, the client gives you a deposit up front and let's say may and that shoot may not be into August.

So a lot of times what I see people doing is they see this money in their account and they're spending it, they're buying gear, they're doing these different things, but they didn't set aside, okay, here's all my crew fees, my [00:18:00] location fees. So, you know, that's one of the biggest things actually being frequently, um, attentive to your finances and making sure, okay, well, Um, I know that here's my expenses and, and let me just kind of go through that.

I guess the profit first system is, you know, you're going to have those five bank accounts. So you have the money coming in as revenue. You have your profit, right? That you're making sure you set aside as profit. That's after all the taxes and you have an expense account, different things. You have like a holdings account.

That's how I set mine up. Um, so as soon as I get money in, we're already segmenting it. Right. So. Um, all that money is just nice and organized and different things like that. All my expenses, they're covered and I can actually see my profit, um, daily, you know, so that's, that's a big thing. But, you know, other than just like having a structure, it's about like what, one of my, my second business coach said this to me and I kind of took that as a thing, like, um, until you get to about a half a [00:19:00] million dollars annually.

Everything used to eat, sleep, and breathe cells, right? So, um, you have a lot of people who want to do cool things, like, hey, let's just make this creative series, or, like, go shoot these passion projects, or this and that, just do different things, and they're not completely locked in on their cells and creating predictability, and that's what makes a lot of people struggle.

A lot of creatives don't like to do sales, but, you know, um, between, you know, you constantly reaching out, um, going to events, finding the platforms that work to post on, reaching out to people like that has to be a thing. And I just did content on this, but there's different marketing and sales cycles, right?

You got your short term and your longterm. And a lot of people in the corporate space, we understand it gets cold in the winter. You know, the fiscal year is finishing up, like, between that November to January time period, it gets a little quiet. So, really making sure, you know, some of the marketing that you're doing now might not result in quick [00:20:00] sales, but you might be building relationships for 30, 60, 90 days down the line where now you'll have those projects coming, uh, coming up.

And, um, I think another thing that really helped is being able to, uh, Really create the structure to have retainers. Um, those retainers, like we've had some clients where they'll just pay us 30, 40, 000 upfront for the year for a set amount of videos. So we have that, or we have the monthly that's coming and recurring.

So just really being able to piece all of that together is definitely going to help you be able to have that predictability to do different things. So it's, it's super important. Like you gotta understand business. You want to be successful. So.

Paul Bzeta: What's your revenue pie look like in terms of percentages? So you don't have to tell me numbers, but you know, how much a percentage of your revenue pie is retainers versus say, You know, one off projects.

Derick Pope: Um, so, you know, the retainers are something that we're [00:21:00] still building. I would say about 25 percent it goes to retainers. Uh, that's something that definitely, that I'm actually just, um, sent out scripts to my salespeople now, uh, in the offer that we have to bring in more retainers, um, You know, and so we don't just do video.

So on the video side, it's about, uh, you know, 25%. But on the marketing side, it's about 75%. So we got social media management, different advertisements that we're doing. So, um, that's, that's another thing that really helped to, um, kind of keep that predictability up is adding in the marketing piece. Um, And, you know, it's kind of an easy switch in the, in the corporate space.

If you really get passionate about marketing and, you know, a lot of my clients, they're, they're understanding, like, you know, a lot of my questions aren't, you know, yeah, they are like, Hey, do you want to shoot this 4k? What camera do you want to use? Different things like that. But it's like, you know, Hey.

What are your goals? What's the lifetime value of a [00:22:00] client? Like, how many new clients are you looking to get? And just different things like that. And then it's the easy transition to say, Hey, we do have marketing services. Um, so we can not only shoot the video for you, but we can chop it up into small pieces, manage it on your social media, uh, run it as ads, different things like that.

So on the, yeah, so on, it's, it's kind of complex. We split the two, but on the, on the video side, it's, it's about 75 20 and then it flips on the marketing side. So. That's kind of how that goes. But

Paul Bzeta: How did, how long did it take for you to transition from, or not transition, but to offer this, uh, secondary service, the video marketing versus the video production? And can you describe a little bit about what, what led you to offer that? Secondary service?

Derick Pope: yeah, so, you know, I got a little bit ahead of myself. So that first year, Oh my God. So that first year, you know, once I learned that my, my first coach was saying, you know, [00:23:00] Hey, these clients, these clients care about results. Like the only reason they hire you for a video is because they have some results they want to get.

Right. So it's not just a nice video. It's either more sales, more awareness, more streams. If you're doing music, whatever it might be. Um, You know, so I'm thinking, okay, how can we get results? He's like, oh, you can do some ads and different things like that. So really early on and why I struggled early on.

is because I was trying to do a little bit of everything. You know, I'm trying to be a whole marketing agency, right? Just flat out marketing agency. We just, we do everything, um, in video in house. And what I came to realize was that I was slightly good at a lot of different things and not great at anything.

And I had to really reassess rebrand. I mean, the whole website was marketing agency at the beginning. I created my own website and it's a, there's a lot of time put into it. And, but one thing that I did do is always reassess, you know, quarterly, annually, okay, what's going on, how are things going? And I realized [00:24:00] that.

You know, when it came to marketing that, um, kind of everything's on you, you know, if they don't, if they don't, if you don't educate them on, Hey, 500 a month, isn't going to get you anything results in ads. So like. You know, putting yourself in situations where their success is really going to determine whether they keep hiring you.

It's just, it's a lot more to the marketing. Um, so I realized, okay, let's step back from that piece. Let's just focus only on video. And that's when things took off. We focus only on video and, you know, but I still had that market and passion and. Um, you know, just doing the research and I noticed like there were different video marketing agencies and I started hearing this is like, Hey, it's not, yeah, you have your, your just digital marketing agencies, but video marketing agencies, it's really a nice kind of buzzword of companies that just really care about your results.

They can offer those marketing services, but everything is video forefront. So we're running as we were using video, we're focused on your social, we're using video. [00:25:00] So, um. You know, it's not so much that we're just so locked in on marketing, but all of our video clients, we noticed that they have. These marketing agency horror stories where they can't trust the agency.

We got this amazing video and you know, their campaign and their, all the distribution with the video afterwards is terrible. So, uh, really just being able to earn more, learn more outsourcing, really get some people in that, uh, can do the marketing for me, you know what I mean? And just have. Strong portfolios.

That's how we got to that transition. So, um, me still having those, those calls with clients about how much I care about their business, not just a cool video or, you know, letting them know, like, Hey, you know, um, yeah, I know you said you want to spend 10, 000 on this video, but what is your ad budget afterwards?

You know, and let's say in like, Hey. I don't mind. I want to make sure you make the money come back. Let's do your video for 5, 000 spend a little bit more on ads and come back and we'll do two more, three more videos. [00:26:00] Uh, the next record is once you scale that up. So really just building those relationships like that.

And you know, they gain that trust for You know, where we haven't done that much marketing or don't have a ton of case studies, the client saw how much, uh, we carried and it's like, okay, Hey, we do feel comfortable doing this with you. Um, and then also how I got into it too, was I wasn't doing the marketing in house at first.

So I was partnering with marketing agencies, just like, Hey, you know, and specifically ones that didn't offer videos like, Hey, you guys don't offer video in house. We can help you with the video. Also, we don't offer marketing in house. Let's outsource the marketing. Let's kind of scratch each other's back that way and that's how we're able to build up case studies and just do different things like that.

So, um, and, you know, I got some really nice kind of, at first, you know, it's not as much, uh, but you can't be greedy. So I would get some nice commission checks when the agency I was partnering with, they were getting, okay, they're getting the retainer checks. And I would just get, you know, a couple hundred, a couple [00:27:00] thousand here based off of those projects.

So, um, it's a great way to just get your foot in the door and then just kind of build out your marketing team to really be able to execute and just learn more. But, uh, it's definitely been nice to have multiple options and streams of like, Hey, we, we've done some web design projects. We got social media, man.

So we got video production. Um, and you know, another big piece to the video marketing is like, we're not just creating one off videos. A lot of times, like we're doing whole campaigns and just video strategies for the year. Like campaign rollouts for like power finger, uh, support lift company. We created their whole campaign rollout for their latest work lift.

It just came out. So we created the intro videos, the main commercial, the product lines, and then all the promo videos after, and really just guided them. Okay, here's how we should do it. Here's the tone. Here's what we should do, how, where should be rolled out. So it was just being able to be that expert on how to [00:28:00] utilize video.

That's another aspect of the video marketing agency. So. Yeah. I love it to be honest. I know that was a lot, but I get passionate about it. So, so

Paul Bzeta: No, I mean, it's obvious that you're passionate about it and you've what you've learned over time is that video is not necessarily or should be a transactional agreement. It should be a consultive. sale, it should be developing relationships. And then over time, those things become even more fruitful. So you've already given us a couple of some great nuggets of advice there.

Um, and I'm sure you've been asked this many times, but if you had to come up with the top three or the top five things that you would say to newcomers in video. Whether they're just right out of film school or right out of college or maybe they've been laid off and they've always had a sort of a secret passion for video production.

You know, what advice would you give them that would save them time and [00:29:00] a lot of money?

Derick Pope: Yeah. My top five tips is either find a mentor or a business coach. Number one there, they've made the mistakes already. They put the time in and what I do is I teach a lot of people is work on kind of hand in hand. This could be number two. Start working on your business credit so you can do things like invest in your knowledge and, and everything like that.

Because, you know, like right now my course is 5, 000, but what I teach students is, okay, here's how you can work on your credit and get, um, you can get like a credit card for 5, 000 and monthly, depending on your credit, that might be a hundred to 200 a month. So it's going to be a lot easier, a lot softer blow.

So you can get working with business coaches earlier, early on. So that might be. One or two work with business coaches, um, do the work that it takes to build that foundation, um, learn business, everything like that. Make sure you have a strong product, do what it takes to have a strong product and don't be scared to do sales, [00:30:00] lose sleep over sales, you know, all the different challenges you can, but that's the most important, like word of mouth, isn't going to cut it.

Um, just posting on social isn't going to cut it. You have to actually. Go out and see what works and keep that, you know, keep that those projects coming in. So

Paul Bzeta: Yeah.

Derick Pope: that was, was that five? Was that? Yeah.

Paul Bzeta: It was. Uh, Derek, where can our listeners, uh, find you and HighArk online? Why don't you, uh, tell us where we can find you.

Derick Pope: Yep. Yep. So one of the best places is LinkedIn. Um, so Derek Pope, that's D E R I C K and then Pope, P O P E. Um, and then also you have higher media, which is H I G H A R C media incorporated. Um, there's no nugget. LinkedIn is just, you can connect with all the biggest companies in the world on LinkedIn. So it's definitely a great place to be.

And, um, same thing on Instagram. Uh, it's just [00:31:00] that first and last name, Derek Pope with a two at the end and then hired media, just hired media. So, um, you'll see that I tend to be kind of like a. A personal influencer when it comes to production and different things like that, then Hierarch is really just like the portfolio kind of clean cut company.

So I do put effort into both, but yeah, feel free to give me a follow if you got questions, anything like that. Um, I will gladly answer those. So

Paul Bzeta: Amazing. Derek Pope, founder, HighArk Media. Thank you so much for being on the podcast today and Derek, keep crushing it out there.

Derick Pope: thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much.

Paul Bzeta: [00:32:00] I'm here with Derek Pope. Derek, thanks for joining us today.

Derick Pope: Absolutely. Paul, how's it going,

Paul Bzeta: Very good. Very good. So how's business? How is High Arc Media doing so far this year?

Derick Pope: man? We are blessed to actually be doing well. Um, it was a little shaky to start the year. I'm not going to lie. Um, you know, between the bank failures economy, I think, you know, being in this corporate space, you know, there's a lot of speculation and, um, it was a little quiet and I think as people realize one, you know, I have some friends who always say, you know.

Honestly, when I saw everything about the BRICS currency and everything, I'm like, okay, I'm planning my move out the country, you know, and I'm like, well, I might be moving or trying to go somewhere else. But, you know, a good friend of mine, uh, he mentioned, he's like, Hey man, like the industry that we're in when times get hard, our companies, our clients need to advertise more.

So we'll always have business. And that's how I feel like, uh, things really moved. So, um, right now [00:33:00] things are going really well. Um, Yeah, I can't complain. Got a couple of big documentaries, commercials with some pretty big organizations. So,

Paul Bzeta: Yeah, that's great. So doing documentaries, doing commercials, that's uh, quite a step from someone who maybe a few years ago, uh, Can you sort of summarize a little bit about yourself and your journey and how you've got to where you are now?

Derick Pope: yep. Yep. Every time I get asked that question, I give all my kudos to my business coaches. So, um, I'm a huge fan of business coaches. When I first started, um, you know, I was literally, um, you can't tell from me sitting down, but I'm six foot five, pretty athletic. So I played basketball my whole life. I was just doing highlight videos, different things like that.

And I was maybe charging like 250 for like six highlight reels or something like that. Terrible. Um, but you know, I had some friends that had nice cameras and I started using [00:34:00] it for my own brand and different things I was doing. And I noticed that it was really picking up steam on social media, different things like them.

Okay. Hey, you know, I really like when I see these Superbowl commercials, different things like that, somebody shooting them, how is that set up? I always knew I had the smarts, you know, get into business and do my own thing. So I was just on Instagram. I got an ad from a business coach and he's like, yeah, blah, blah, blah.

This might be you. It resonated. We jumped on a free call and he was so genuine and you know, it just completely changed my life. Uh, uh, it was a three month program. I did not have the money at the time. I think it was like. Somewhere between 3, 500, 4, 000. I put it on credit, called a couple of lenders, put it all together, took the risk, and I made that money back before three months was even done.

So since then I've had about four or five business courses now. So it's. It changed my life, for sure.

Paul Bzeta: And you're using the business coaches for developing the business plan or was it [00:35:00] to, you know, use them as a sounding board when it came to looking for clients.

Derick Pope: Right, so, there were several different coaches, right? So, the very first one, uh, was anybody can do this for free. It was the local chamber of commerce. And I was just running my business ideas by them. That was one of the first things I heard, heard about. And that was really solid, but they were very general.

Um, you know, he was able to, You know, kind of see what I was talking about and give me general advice on like just best general business practices. But me understand that I needed somebody in production who's made the mistakes, who knows exactly where to find the people. Um, so that first coach showed me how to, you know, first off, the biggest thing he's like, we're not doing anything under 1500, that was.

Now I don't do anything under like five or 10, but you know, his first thing was like, we're going to start charging more. We're going to work with corporate clients. And, um, you know, just really showing me how to do sales marketing, how to brand myself. It [00:36:00] was one of the toughest times ever really putting together all these spec commercials and different things.

But, you know, I had that as an athlete, I had that, that, that grind, that competitiveness to me. And I just, took over and now he jokes with me like, how'd you pass me? Like you're, you're doing things bigger than I've ever done. And I just was hungry for the information. So, yeah, I mean, and after that I worked with a coach who, um, taught me about scaling.

So, you know, he was like, Hey, we don't take anybody who's not making six figures. And it's just, you know, you need to be at that level to really. Um, implement some of the things you have to pay to play. So, um, you know, he really taught me how to hire people, how to really cater to high end clients. And, um, like I said, I'm just forever grateful and I actually do business coaching now as well.

I've been able to, to make it to a point where I'm teaching people. I've got several students who got retainer clients. They're doing very well now. So. It's been a great journey to be honest,[00:37:00]

Paul Bzeta: So from athlete to video production company owner to business coach. Amazing. Amazing. So how did you get those first initial clients, Derek? Talk to me about, um,

Derick Pope: uh, the business coaching clients or

Paul Bzeta: No, I'm sorry, the video production coaches.

Derick Pope: okay. Yeah.

Paul Bzeta: Or sorry, the video production clients.

Derick Pope: yeah. Yeah. So It's funny, you know, it's funny how times change but at the time that goes to telling me about this software called thumbtack and You know thumbtack is a platform where you just it's kind of like, you know kind of like your up work your fiber, but more so in the service based industry where Um, it's like really face to face.

They got some digital things, but you can list as photography services, videography and, you know, between, you know, [00:38:00] okay, biggest things with my coach is saying like, Hey, all you have is these little basketball highlights and just, you know, some guys running around the court, that's not going to attract the clients that you need.

So. So, you know, um, he really worked with me on, um, going and shooting spec commercials that look like the clients, look like the work of the clients that I wanted to work with. So I had to like rent out locations, rent out better camera gear, do all these different things to put together a video. And it's crazy.

I thought I did an amazing job. I thought I did an amazing job in the. First draft I sent him, he's like, Nope, not good enough. You gotta reshoot it. And I almost broke. But, um, so yeah, just really make sure I had a strong portfolio and then taking that portfolio speaks for itself and just putting it in front of the right people.

So, um, now I never used Thumbtack because it's very kind of small projects. But at the time that was amazing. I was able to make a living off of Thumbtack to be honest. So. That's how I really got those first ones. My first ever true video production, uh, was with a pretty [00:39:00] big company called recruiting daily.

It was a big corporate event. Uh, I got there, I was missing a piece to my gimbal. I was freaking out. I ended up having to do these different things. I was shooting by myself, no team, no crew. And it's just, it's just funny to see how far you come along. I just recently did a production where we had like a 60 person crew.

So it's just, you know, um, it's nice to see like the growth and different things like that.

Paul Bzeta: Yeah, definitely. So You started by doing spec spots. So was this before landing that first client that you were just sort of trying to develop a reel or a, or a list of examples.

Derick Pope: Absolutely. And I tell all my students that like, we're in the business of creativity and your work speaks for itself. You know, obviously you have to have great processes and customer journeys around that and do sales and marketing. But the biggest thing is like, Hey. It's a visual product. So how does your product look?

So that's the biggest thing, just like, you know, McDonald's or any food places, like, Hey, [00:40:00] the product isn't going to sell if it doesn't taste good, if it doesn't look good, and it's the same thing, same thing with us. So you got to work on your product first. Um, so yeah, I started with that and he, you know, he was like, Hey, you know, you can create your specs.

You can use a combination of some of my footage. Um, one thing that I tell people now is to, and this is, these are some gems that I'm giving away now, but one thing that I tell people now is to, you know, first off, you don't want to do all the work yourself, you're going to burn out. So go ahead and start reaching out to contractors who have the type of portfolio in the industries that you want to work in.

So, for instance, I really want to work in healthcare. I might reach out to cinematographers, directors, producers in the healthcare industry. Who, if I'm first starting out, right, who have this portfolio and I'm saying, Hey, I'm really, um, looking to take my production company to the next level. I'll be doing sales and marketing and different things like that.

If you don't mind, uh, I would love to put some of your portfolio on my site. And anytime I get a job, I'll make sure to [00:41:00] hire you. We can write a contract, different things like that. So that's a quick way to just get the portfolio that you need. And. That way you'll be working with multiple people. You, uh, you have that, that portfolio.

It's just, it's a great way to get there quickly, but that product is absolutely necessary. And, um, just like other things, other things you can do partnerships and production. So. Um, yeah, making sure you can partner quickly and get that portfolio that you need and then shift from there. That's a good way to start.

Paul Bzeta: Yeah. Amazing. Um, we can get into a little bit more about that in terms of, uh, some advice that you might have for newcomers. 'cause it sounds as though you've got quite a , you're gonna have quite a few. But how do you ensure, Derek, that you and your team is always delivering great work?

Derick Pope: Yeah. So that's, that's a good question. And that's, I'm, I'm a stickler on that. Like, you know, um, the biggest thing is for me is looking to [00:42:00] make partnerships with all my clients. Right. So we don't want to. So we're not just a production company. We're a video marketing agency. So the biggest thing is like, Hey, the video part is easy, but we want to make sure the story is told in a way that's going to create results for you and make you more money.

So you keep coming back to hire video. So we're always when, what I view as a great piece is a piece to actually achieve the client's goals, um, articulates. To their specific target audience, everything that they need to know. Um, so that's number one. I'm always looking to make sure that we do an audit with the client.

We, we want to see what their true goals are. What does it look like? What does success look like when this video is done? And then from there, you know, obviously having my systems and processes of Um, you know, just pre production, everything, every, every phase is important and pre production is the most important part.

So if that's location scouting, making sure that I'm creating a mood board, a shot list, um, and I just have that checklist [00:43:00] before. So this is the biggest thing. And I told my clients, yes. I'm not the cheapest. Um, we definitely charge a lot more than other companies that you'll be working with, but that comes with experience, you know, that we'll have backup cameras.

If one camera fails, we'll have other ones. We'll have batteries, everything's charged. We have a checklist, you know? Um, so really just having those systems in place to make sure. For every production that, you know, everything's laid out, charged up, ready to go. And, you know, the clients are paying for that, but in the end run, like they see the results and they can make sure that, Hey, this production is always going to be a hundred percent success.

So, um, yeah, just having those systems in place is like huge.

Paul Bzeta: What sort of road bumps did you come across in the past few years that allowed you to grow to where you grow to where you are now and perfect some of those systems that you've talked about? Um, can you describe some of those challenges you ran [00:44:00] into?

Derick Pope: man. Yep, yep, yep. I'm having PTSD now. Um, I've had several. Um, you know, I, and they have been, it's funny that some of the biggest roadblocks and road bumps that I've had have been with some of the biggest clients. So I think one of the most, and this was a recent one, um, Man, I talked about this on another podcast, but I'll keep it brief.

Pretty much we're shooting with Sony. I'm a huge fan of Sony. And you know, of course, one of the requirements is what is that we shoot with Sony cameras. And, you know, we had two shoots on the same day and I had to prioritize the bigger shoot, which was one up in New York is a huge commercial for a forklift company.

And I had one of my smaller crews going out to Tennessee to shoot the Sony commercial and. I, I worked with one of my DPs who I don't always work with because my A team was up with me. So, um, Sony sadly, and I regret this, they got, they got my B team. I [00:45:00] didn't go through all the systems with them. So the FX6 was the camera.

And, um, I've, I've something, it's something about if you try to put it into raw and have it shoot raw without sending it to like the, uh, Shogun monitor or something like that. It's not actually recording. It'll say record, but it's not actually recording those files. So they,

Paul Bzeta: Oh, no.

Derick Pope: yeah, so Sony only got proxy files and we tried to upscale it, different things like that.

And it just was not working. So, you know, that's one of the things is making sure that the crews I'm working with has all already been briefed because they did make that specific Sony camera requirement and he hadn't been using those very often. But, yeah. You know, I was just very confident in his ability.

That's a super particular thing to that camera. So, um, just making sure we had briefing. I was, uh, spending a lot of time on the bigger project, but just making sure that all my clients get the attention that they need and that the right [00:46:00] people are in place. That's definitely a big thing. Uh, those checklists are huge.

You know, like I said, I've been on productions, forgotten pieces to a gimbal or different things like that. So organization and labeling, uh, just those day before preparations definitely help. Man, I've learned back when, I mean, it's still a thing, but I had a big reality show in LA. Another thing we were shooting with the already tungsten lights, um, and they get hot.

So we're in this guy's like 10 million mansion. I told my gaffer, it's like, Hey, I really want a nice like six 50 watt a hair light from back in the corner. Just so happened at that corner had a, um, uh, sprinkler. So it was close to the sprinkler and it set off the water and his whole mansion. Oh my God, it was stressful.

Luckily I had insurance. It still wasn't. It was a pretty penny, but so yeah, different roadblocks. I think one of the other things too, was from an admin [00:47:00] operation standpoint is, you know, uh, coming from 250 videos. You know, when I first made six figures, I changed my lifestyle and I tell everybody, don't change your lifestyle.

I was getting so excited. I'm like, Hey, you know, I'm paying myself more. I'm doing this behind this gear, doing all of that. And you quickly realize that these expenses add up quickly and all these projects aren't extremely predictable. We got COVID hitting, which things kind of went to zero. So, uh, that was a roadblock to just really understand.

I need to get really strict on my finances. Um, so that's another thing I tell people, just because you start making more, keep your lifestyle the same. If you really want to be able to have the money to invest and keep that business growing. So it's been a lot, it's been growing pains for sure, but. It definitely helps you grow up quickly.

So, um, I actually am going on five years of this production company and there's people who are 10, 15 years in saying, man, you've made such strides and different things. So just like people say, they get thrown into the real world and have to grow [00:48:00] up quickly. I threw myself in the fire quickly and had to grow up as a company.

So, um, yeah, it's been a lot for sure. So.

Paul Bzeta: Wow. My I had heart pains there listening about the Sony project. And then you hit me up with the sprinkler system going off in the guy's house here. I had to take a take a deep breath there. I feel you, man. I feel you for that.

Derick Pope: man,

Paul Bzeta: Oh, my God.

Derick Pope: man.

Paul Bzeta: Let me let me ask you this. Um, staying, getting, getting business in, getting revenue in is one thing.

Staying profitable on a consistent basis is another. So how do you stay profitable and keep your, keep your eye to the ball like that?

Derick Pope: Yeah. So, um, that's, that's a super important question. That's where I start with everybody's having that foundation. Right. And you know, in this industry, there's a lot of people who, you know, went to film [00:49:00] school, not necessarily business school. So they're amazing creatives, but they don't know much about business or finance and structure.

So, uh, one of the biggest things that I do is, you know, it's very simple, but it's the profit first system. So. You want to make sure that you have enough, it depends on if you're with like Navy federal, you can make accounts at no charge, but a lot of banks charge you a minimum to have your, um, you know, your, your money in there.

So if like, for instance, Chase, we were Chase and you know, you have to have a minimum of 2000 to each account. So if you have five accounts, that's at least 10, 000. Um, if not, there's like a monthly fee of 15. But what that does is, you know, in this industry, there's a lot of times where. If you're a wedding photographer, if you are shooting certain commercials, the client gives you a deposit up front and let's say may and that shoot may not be into August.

So a lot of times what I see people doing is they see this money in their account and they're spending it, they're buying gear, they're doing these different things, but they didn't set aside, okay, here's all my crew fees, my location fees. So, you know, that's one [00:50:00] of the biggest things actually being frequently, um, attentive to your finances and making sure, okay, well, Um, I know that here's my expenses and, and let me just kind of go through that.

I guess the profit first system is, you know, you're going to have those five bank accounts. So you have the money coming in as revenue. You have your profit, right? That you're making sure you set aside as profit. That's after all the taxes and you have an expense account, different things. You have like a holdings account.

That's how I set mine up. Um, so as soon as I get money in, we're already segmenting it. Right. So. Um, all that money is just nice and organized and different things like that. All my expenses, they're covered and I can actually see my profit, um, daily, you know, so that's, that's a big thing. But, you know, other than just like having a structure, it's about like what, one of my, my second business coach said this to me and I kind of took that as a thing, like, um, until you get to about a half a million dollars annually.

Everything [00:51:00] used to eat, sleep, and breathe cells, right? So, um, you have a lot of people who want to do cool things, like, hey, let's just make this creative series, or, like, go shoot these passion projects, or this and that, just do different things, and they're not completely locked in on their cells and creating predictability, and that's what makes a lot of people struggle.

A lot of creatives don't like to do sales, but, you know, um, between, you know, you constantly reaching out, um, going to events, finding the platforms that work to post on, reaching out to people like that has to be a thing. And I just did content on this, but there's different marketing and sales cycles, right?

You got your short term and your longterm. And a lot of people in the corporate space, we understand it gets cold in the winter. You know, the fiscal year is finishing up, like, between that November to January time period, it gets a little quiet. So, really making sure, you know, some of the marketing that you're doing now might not result in quick sales, but you might be building relationships for [00:52:00] 30, 60, 90 days down the line where now you'll have those projects coming, uh, coming up.

And, um, I think another thing that really helped is being able to, uh, Really create the structure to have retainers. Um, those retainers, like we've had some clients where they'll just pay us 30, 40, 000 upfront for the year for a set amount of videos. So we have that, or we have the monthly that's coming and recurring.

So just really being able to piece all of that together is definitely going to help you be able to have that predictability to do different things. So it's, it's super important. Like you gotta understand business. You want to be successful. So.

Paul Bzeta: What's your revenue pie look like in terms of percentages? So you don't have to tell me numbers, but you know, how much a percentage of your revenue pie is retainers versus say, You know, one off projects.

Derick Pope: Um, so, you know, the retainers are something that we're still building. I would say about [00:53:00] 25 percent it goes to retainers. Uh, that's something that definitely, that I'm actually just, um, sent out scripts to my salespeople now, uh, in the offer that we have to bring in more retainers, um, You know, and so we don't just do video.

So on the video side, it's about, uh, you know, 25%. But on the marketing side, it's about 75%. So we got social media management, different advertisements that we're doing. So, um, that's, that's another thing that really helped to, um, kind of keep that predictability up is adding in the marketing piece. Um, And, you know, it's kind of an easy switch in the, in the corporate space.

If you really get passionate about marketing and, you know, a lot of my clients, they're, they're understanding, like, you know, a lot of my questions aren't, you know, yeah, they are like, Hey, do you want to shoot this 4k? What camera do you want to use? Different things like that. But it's like, you know, Hey.

What are your goals? What's the lifetime value of a client? Like, how many new clients are you [00:54:00] looking to get? And just different things like that. And then it's the easy transition to say, Hey, we do have marketing services. Um, so we can not only shoot the video for you, but we can chop it up into small pieces, manage it on your social media, uh, run it as ads, different things like that.

So on the, yeah, so on, it's, it's kind of complex. We split the two, but on the, on the video side, it's, it's about 75 20 and then it flips on the marketing side. So. That's kind of how that goes. But

Paul Bzeta: How did, how long did it take for you to transition from, or not transition, but to offer this, uh, secondary service, the video marketing versus the video production? And can you describe a little bit about what, what led you to offer that? Secondary service?

Derick Pope: yeah, so, you know, I got a little bit ahead of myself. So that first year, Oh my God. So that first year, you know, once I learned that my, my first coach was saying, you know, Hey, these clients, these clients care [00:55:00] about results. Like the only reason they hire you for a video is because they have some results they want to get.

Right. So it's not just a nice video. It's either more sales, more awareness, more streams. If you're doing music, whatever it might be. Um, You know, so I'm thinking, okay, how can we get results? He's like, oh, you can do some ads and different things like that. So really early on and why I struggled early on.

is because I was trying to do a little bit of everything. You know, I'm trying to be a whole marketing agency, right? Just flat out marketing agency. We just, we do everything, um, in video in house. And what I came to realize was that I was slightly good at a lot of different things and not great at anything.

And I had to really reassess rebrand. I mean, the whole website was marketing agency at the beginning. I created my own website and it's a, there's a lot of time put into it. And, but one thing that I did do is always reassess, you know, quarterly, annually, okay, what's going on, how are things going? And I realized that.

You know, [00:56:00] when it came to marketing that, um, kind of everything's on you, you know, if they don't, if they don't, if you don't educate them on, Hey, 500 a month, isn't going to get you anything results in ads. So like. You know, putting yourself in situations where their success is really going to determine whether they keep hiring you.

It's just, it's a lot more to the marketing. Um, so I realized, okay, let's step back from that piece. Let's just focus only on video. And that's when things took off. We focus only on video and, you know, but I still had that market and passion and. Um, you know, just doing the research and I noticed like there were different video marketing agencies and I started hearing this is like, Hey, it's not, yeah, you have your, your just digital marketing agencies, but video marketing agencies, it's really a nice kind of buzzword of companies that just really care about your results.

They can offer those marketing services, but everything is video forefront. So we're running as we were using video, we're focused on your social, we're using video. So, um. You know, it's not [00:57:00] so much that we're just so locked in on marketing, but all of our video clients, we noticed that they have. These marketing agency horror stories where they can't trust the agency.

We got this amazing video and you know, their campaign and their, all the distribution with the video afterwards is terrible. So, uh, really just being able to earn more, learn more outsourcing, really get some people in that, uh, can do the marketing for me, you know what I mean? And just have. Strong portfolios.

That's how we got to that transition. So, um, me still having those, those calls with clients about how much I care about their business, not just a cool video or, you know, letting them know, like, Hey, you know, um, yeah, I know you said you want to spend 10, 000 on this video, but what is your ad budget afterwards?

You know, and let's say in like, Hey. I don't mind. I want to make sure you make the money come back. Let's do your video for 5, 000 spend a little bit more on ads and come back and we'll do two more, three more videos. Uh, the next record is once you scale that [00:58:00] up. So really just building those relationships like that.

And you know, they gain that trust for You know, where we haven't done that much marketing or don't have a ton of case studies, the client saw how much, uh, we carried and it's like, okay, Hey, we do feel comfortable doing this with you. Um, and then also how I got into it too, was I wasn't doing the marketing in house at first.

So I was partnering with marketing agencies, just like, Hey, you know, and specifically ones that didn't offer videos like, Hey, you guys don't offer video in house. We can help you with the video. Also, we don't offer marketing in house. Let's outsource the marketing. Let's kind of scratch each other's back that way and that's how we're able to build up case studies and just do different things like that.

So, um, and, you know, I got some really nice kind of, at first, you know, it's not as much, uh, but you can't be greedy. So I would get some nice commission checks when the agency I was partnering with, they were getting, okay, they're getting the retainer checks. And I would just get, you know, a couple hundred, a couple thousand here based off of those projects.

So, [00:59:00] um, it's a great way to just get your foot in the door and then just kind of build out your marketing team to really be able to execute and just learn more. But, uh, it's definitely been nice to have multiple options and streams of like, Hey, we, we've done some web design projects. We got social media, man.

So we got video production. Um, and you know, another big piece to the video marketing is like, we're not just creating one off videos. A lot of times, like we're doing whole campaigns and just video strategies for the year. Like campaign rollouts for like power finger, uh, support lift company. We created their whole campaign rollout for their latest work lift.

It just came out. So we created the intro videos, the main commercial, the product lines, and then all the promo videos after, and really just guided them. Okay, here's how we should do it. Here's the tone. Here's what we should do, how, where should be rolled out. So it was just being able to be that expert on how to utilize video.

That's another aspect of the [01:00:00] video marketing agency. So. Yeah. I love it to be honest. I know that was a lot, but I get passionate about it. So, so

Paul Bzeta: No, I mean, it's obvious that you're passionate about it and you've what you've learned over time is that video is not necessarily or should be a transactional agreement. It should be a consultive. sale, it should be developing relationships. And then over time, those things become even more fruitful. So you've already given us a couple of some great nuggets of advice there.

Um, and I'm sure you've been asked this many times, but if you had to come up with the top three or the top five things that you would say to newcomers in video. Whether they're just right out of film school or right out of college or maybe they've been laid off and they've always had a sort of a secret passion for video production.

You know, what advice would you give them that would save them time and a lot of money?

Derick Pope: Yeah. My [01:01:00] top five tips is either find a mentor or a business coach. Number one there, they've made the mistakes already. They put the time in and what I do is I teach a lot of people is work on kind of hand in hand. This could be number two. Start working on your business credit so you can do things like invest in your knowledge and, and everything like that.

Because, you know, like right now my course is 5, 000, but what I teach students is, okay, here's how you can work on your credit and get, um, you can get like a credit card for 5, 000 and monthly, depending on your credit, that might be a hundred to 200 a month. So it's going to be a lot easier, a lot softer blow.

So you can get working with business coaches earlier, early on. So that might be. One or two work with business coaches, um, do the work that it takes to build that foundation, um, learn business, everything like that. Make sure you have a strong product, do what it takes to have a strong product and don't be scared to do sales, lose sleep over sales, you [01:02:00] know, all the different challenges you can, but that's the most important, like word of mouth, isn't going to cut it.